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Report: Hermes A320 at Lyon on Apr 11th 2012, unstabilized approach, dual input, descended below safe height
Reader Comments: (the comments posted below do not reflect the view of The Aviation Herald but represent the view of the various posters) By lucky!!! on Saturday, May 23rd 2015 13:48Z Oh mon Dieux!
Good to know those airliners, to avoid them like hell! What kind of instructor....... Stupidity or fatal recklessness by the part of the management? What is the greek CAA going to do about this serious incident (luckily not accident) ? I will be very surprised if measures will take place against this company. @eric By Alex on Friday, Apr 3rd 2015 16:15Z Ahhh, ok. True, I did not understand correctly, that's why I asked. Thanks for clarification!
FD By eric on Thursday, Apr 2nd 2015 17:14Z you did not understand correctly alex , the plane responds but not the FD!!
Really? By Alex on Saturday, Mar 28th 2015 22:01Z Am I missing something here:
"disengaged the autopilots, placed the thrust levers in the CLIMB detent and pulled the nose up to 9.5 degrees nose up, however, the automation, due to clean configuration, did not detect the terrain avoidance manoeuver and continued flight director modes vertical speed and heading select." So, the pilot disengages the autopilot, manually moves the trust levers and the stick - yet the plane doesn't respond? Did I understand correctly? bananian.... By Tery on Saturday, Mar 21st 2015 18:38Z That's happened to an "airline " which type rating , K1 and TRI is for sale for anybody . Off course we can see the training department is also one of a kind .
Remember also Lyon (again) were a 321 became SUV ..... Let's hope that there is no third time , because it's not going to be so,lucky ... Lyon By AirbusTKI on Saturday, Mar 21st 2015 12:53Z Lyon is obviously not a popular destination for this airline.
Cockpit Crew Coordination By Pianoman By An Enthusiast on Friday, Mar 20th 2015 15:18Z "Children of the Magenta", a very good piece of common sense, or maybe "flysense" better said. What an anticipation (1997) of today's facts (2015).
FBW By Terry on Thursday, Mar 19th 2015 14:31Z Guys and Girls. An Airbus or any other airplane is not Commanded by the Flying Controls....obviously
Thank you very Much ILS freq By willy on Thursday, Mar 19th 2015 05:23Z The first mistake; not tuning Lyons ILS freq perpetrated all the rest of the errors but surely this should have been gone through in the pre=landing briefing?
Cockpit Crew Coordination By Pianoman on Thursday, Mar 19th 2015 03:04Z This is one of the worst examples of cockpit crew coordination I have ever seen. What's wrong with turning the automation off and hand flying the airplane? After all, we're pilots aren't we? Every reader of the Herald should watch a presentation given to American Airlines pilots in the late 90's called "Children of the Magenta"......available on
Linked Controls By Markus on Wednesday, Mar 18th 2015 21:53Z Having feedback to the side stick based on aerodynamic conditions may be a good thing. In my view, the pilots should be aware of who is actually responsible for controlling the aircraft, it should not need a mechanical or SW actuated link between the two controls to make the pilots aware of a conflicting situation. Something went wrong before this conflict actually occurs. I guess that's what should be addressed. Perhaps a big indicator in front of the pilots would do to which shows who is supposed to be responsible for flying the air craft. Or a big lever pointing left or right. Just my thoughts on this.. Regards
By (anonymous) on Wednesday, Mar 18th 2015 19:02Z They are both sick and performed worst than a PPL student, no procedures no common sense no brains and sense of guilt carrying all those people while they know they can't fly the thing, I wonder whether they both have a TR? Someone should spit on their faces fake pilots criminals...
if the worst machine can fly better than these pilots By zurk on Wednesday, Mar 18th 2015 18:07Z are there any objections to doing away with pilots altogether ? After all automation just needs to be better than the lowest common denominator of the aviation world.
By (anonymous) on Wednesday, Mar 18th 2015 17:04Z Could anything else have probably gone wrong, those two fake pilots should hand over their licences and stop the Russian roulette game with the lives of the pax, shame on you both and your company .
By Jeremy on Wednesday, Mar 18th 2015 16:38Z Chilling!
qualifications By Brian on Wednesday, Mar 18th 2015 13:52Z If the instructor had 620 total hours on type, how many of those hours were as an instructor on type? I'm assuming it's quite low. The captain had 25 hours on type and had flown 13 legs, 3 legs as PM and 9 legs as PF. So depending on how you read it, this flight was either his 9th or 10th time as pilot flying (on type). Oh yes, and before these 13 legs he possibly hadn't flown in 2 years.
PLUS they had never flown together, PLUS it was dark and IMC. I would hope that many flagship carriers would consider this an inappropriate pairing of crew resources. Legal, maybe, but safe, no. And lastly, do instructors have any option to excuse themselves from an assignment without recriminations if they feel the flight plan coupled with the crew pairing is not optimal for safety? The real cause By John O on Wednesday, Mar 18th 2015 13:25Z "...
The following factors contributed to the serious incident: - the limited experience on type of both crew members; - the operator’s desire to quickly train a pilot with low experience on type as a Captain.... ...Given the urgent need for flight crew and regulatory documentation, the operations manual was drafted hastily and contained inconsistencies in the criteria for appointments to various positions." No further comment! Highly Experienced By Paul on Wednesday, Mar 18th 2015 13:01Z Just love how clowns like this are referred to as "highly experienced"...and flights like these "landed safely"!!!
Perhaps "have been lucky for 10,000 hours", and "the flight landed luckily" would be more appropriate?! Two things (part 2) By WhiskeyCobra on Wednesday, Mar 18th 2015 12:35Z Secondly, the force feedback everyone keeps yapping about is NOT all that intuitive. There have been plenty of situations where two guys push/pull against each other without even realizing just as long as "dual input" alerts have been ignored on Airbusses. There is a study somewhere (can't find it right now) in which test subjetcs are supposed to push buttons in a sequence. Said buttons randomly get stiffer, and to relax that stiffnes they need to push other buttons out of sequence. They get it right at first, but after a while (degraded situational awareness) they push away without even realizing how much force they are applying in the process.
Having said that, personally I like the yoke better. ;) Two things (part 1) By WhiskeyCobra on Wednesday, Mar 18th 2015 12:33Z First, yeah, their performance was poor. But I wouldn't go as far as saying "they should never fly another plane on the planet" as has been stated. First of all, this will be a clear eye opener for both of them. And it should be for all of us. You ALWAYS should state your intentions beyond a doubt. If you call over the radio, you chat the nucklehead in the tower up until he gets what you're trying to say! I've wittnessed several times in wich "assuming" he understood got people into trouble. On a two man flight deck, same thing applies. And also, while they performed poorly in this situation, they clearly performed well enough for over 10k hours or so in which I doubt they didn't fly high energy ILS approaches before.
@Àngel By Moog on Wednesday, Mar 18th 2015 12:03Z There is an aural warning, but it has been ignored on a number of occasions in the past. It just seems not to be quite enough.
You can certainly blame the pilots for not noticing the alert, but pilot behaviour and skill is more a result of the system they work in than of anything else: ergonomics of the cockpit, training, etc. Therefore, even if you consider the two pilots in this case uncompetent and dangerous, parts of the system have to be improved in order to stop incidents like this from happening again. If you do nothing, this incident will happen again, maybe with a not quite so best-case outcome as in this one. As AF447 has shown, even the pilots employed by a major carrier can repeat grave mistakes that were made decades before (Aeroperù 603 is only one that comes to mind here). Dual Input By Àngel on Wednesday, Mar 18th 2015 10:54Z Doesn't sound a "Dual Input" aural in the cockpit when both pilots move the controls at the same time? Anyway, the performance of the crew (one of them as instructor!) was very poor...
By Anton on Wednesday, Mar 18th 2015 10:41Z Why does this dual input thing still exist with Airbus? It kills people (luckily not int his case)
Pilots needs to have feedback from the controls to tell them what the airplane is doing. In this day and age it is baffling that a pilot can give contradicting inputs without the other knowing it. @Ray cont'd By Moog on Wednesday, Mar 18th 2015 10:26Z The only difference that remains is that on the FBW Airbus, the two pilots can counteract each other's input without realizing it --- the aural and visual warnings have repeatedly been proven to be useless in a confused high-workload environment just like this one.
Time for change? @Ray By Moog on Wednesday, Mar 18th 2015 10:25Z Simulated (aerodynamic) forces is exactly what Boeing implements in all their airliners ("artificial feel unit"). The goal is the same as in the the Airbus FBW system: make sure that control forces and the forces acting on the airframe as a result are correlated in a way similar to what the pilot is used from how C172 days.
At higher speeds, the effort required for, say, a given roll rate, still stays roughly the same compared to lower speeds. Boeing makes sure of that using the "artificial feel unit", which makes the controls stiffer at high speed. In contrast, Airbus FBW leaves stiffness unchanged but changes how much the control surfaces move when the stick is moved, again with the same result. The only difference is that the sidestick travel doesn't change with speed. A pilot primarily controls the aircraft using force on the yoke/stick, not travel, so the effective difference is quite minimal. Sidestick Link By Ray on Wednesday, Mar 18th 2015 09:19Z Reason #1: Total confusion in cockpit. There's no doubt about it.
Now for the Airbus sidestick issue, which contributed to the confusion. I read the same about the new Gulfstream flight deck. Sidesticks that are linked to each other (mechanically?) AND some sort of "feedback", as far as I understood simulating the control forces providing a force feedback. This should be standard in future. That's my opinion. At least the link. Simulated forces can be a source of new issues and confusion, but if it works well, it's an improvement. @Aviation Training By John O on Wednesday, Mar 18th 2015 08:47Z "...With Boeing & AB cranking out aircraft like sausages, and a high percentage going to developing nations, where are the qualified cockpit crews going to come from?..."
Very good point. Yet, getting a cheaper airline ticket has become almost an international pastime. All the time, I hear people talk about how cheap their tickets were, as if this was something of an achievement to be proud of. Today LH pilots are out on strike and the German press is ganging up on them again. Events like this one, should be highlighted more in public, so that people begin to realize that cheap flights can come at a very high price. ScareBus By Not again on Wednesday, Mar 18th 2015 06:52Z Having flown this POS A320 for nearly 3,000hrs again I ask the question how many more people have to die before Airbus does away with this dangerous and confusing cockpit design.
Dual flight controls NOT mechanically linked together is dangerous. Even the latest Gulfstream aircraft designs have side sticks but they are linked together as they ought to be. Flight control feel is essential when controlling an airplane. The Airbus side sticks give the pilot NONE of that control feel. Wow By Phil on Wednesday, Mar 18th 2015 05:00Z and Hermes is still flying.
Dodgy By Piet on Wednesday, Mar 18th 2015 04:58Z Dodgy airline, dodgy instructor...
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